Making the rounds of blogs is a lot like going to old gas stations. "Fillerup?" If you're vintage lucky these days, you might get a window job thrown in. If you are not, you won't bother to acknowledge with a comment, instead sashay on down the internet highway with your "hope" GPS steering you straight into the waiting arms of the cyber warriors. This begs the question of what it is that you are looking for. Want truth? Or do you want corn stalks? Whatever you are looking for is fuel for the warriors. Its the very act of looking that puts the creamed corn on their dinner tables. What does such employment pay, anyway? Have we reached the stage there aren't anymore jobs for Wal*Mart greeters and the masses are doing anything they have to in order to pay rent and taxes? Indeed, we have reached this plateau.
You can see this plateau perfectly by taking a cross country trip from the Pacific Ocean to Detroit. You'll be crossing extraordinary geography until you beltway your way around Denver and land in what they call the Prairie which flats into Joliet, not unlike OZ at all, btw, until you hit the flatter versions of Orange County madness, barrel-tiled, master-planned, underwater turnkey-tract burial grounds with paper shredders built into the breakfast nooks. The only real difference you might ascertain is these midwest master planners included basements which serve as outbuildings do in Affluencia, little storage units in the same decor as the primary dwelling, maintained for broken and extra everythings that inspire the Stephen Kings and Ann Rices and hot serial bloodlust terror TV ratings.
We are exactly where we glimpsed we would be. It is now. We saw it coming, the stages unfolding, the insertions of Mickey Mouse and Goofy on goofballs, the hand-wringing and hoping, but here we are anyway. Will it get worse, sure, why not? This is just today, one of many landings, tomorrow is another vacant prairie, a pause on the stairway which we're moving down step by step into the basement which has been in full view ever since the door was opened. Cyber warriors slide up and down the banisters, clocking your movements, taking names, documenting your participation in the processes to those who think they need to know. As if the state of western culture in these times isn't already known and the color is ...
If you don't know by now, your windshield needs a little rainex. There have been a thousand points of darkness moving us along in a hurried fashion lest anyone figure it out. No matter how much darkness though, the sun still shines in a few distant corners and always will. You can see that much when you look around from wherever you are looking. People make do with these times until these times emerge as different times. They will buy anything you give them if they don't know anything else for comparison.
We collectively possess a basis for comparison, do we not? Or are we just going to chalk it up to "life goes on" and go away quietly into those thousand point of darkness? Oh, I'm not agitating, actually I'm observing the inuring of civilization, master planned pretense on a level only 7 billion mouths could sustain, the perfect crime having taken place and no one has really gotten the goods on the largess of the scam, not even Spitzer, at least, not yet. We might even read about it someday and then go right back to our saved Solitare, oh, wait, you're probably into Minesweeper.
Bulletin Board: John at Survival Acres is back today for one powerful closing statement. It appears Neptune1 has kicked the habit for good.
104 comments:
The very instant I finished reading Johns closing statement:
Nina,
Your writing is superb as usual. I had a synchronicity bordering on an omen just now when I went to the link to Johns final statement.
The instant I finished reading the words:
"This IS the path we as a nation are on, and it will happen unless YOU stop it."
My monitor went black due to an instantaneous power outage.
Lets just say that was quite a powerful message.
As he picks up the clapboard. . .
The Forces know. Nature knows. The People living in countries where this sort of thing has already happened, they know. They also know everything is connected, its no coincidence the power blew. It is likely an errand boy shut the switch to give away your power to an urban area blasting the AC at 60 degrees, unless, of course, the bill was impossible to pay.
You should email John and tell him this, RW, he's very friendly and is always happy to converse.
Are you going to stick around here? I'd like that. Inshallah.
Wow Nina.
You said it all.
Nothing I can add to that.
Going up to the mountains later to play in the snow.
Will howl for you in the inherent freedom that we are, that can never be taken away.
Just read John's closing statement.
He said it all really.
Much to ponder.
Something has hit home.
I'm through trying to change the world... I'm just doing what I have to - to change me. I'm returning my life to a simpler time. A simpler existence, where I'm a lot less dependent on anyone else. I'll be near my family...
I'm moving back to Michigan, just as soon as the house sells.
Notamobster:
Great... hopefully we'll be across the greatest lake from you. Let's converse... perhaps we can sail across the lake someday to visit you (when I have a big enough sailboat - they seem to be on sale these daze, and I suspect I'll get a better bargain next year).
Nina: nice riff. You should write song lyrics... seriously. Joni Mitchell...
Major crisis last night: when we were up North, my wife took the child into the kiddie pool at the municipal pool and sauna complex. She didn't immerse her face in this highly chlorinated pool, but the mere fumes have causes a major reaction, some kind of contact dermatitis. A few years ago, a highly chlorinated Holiday Inn pool causes a similar reaction, and it took a couple of years for this to go away. So she is highly distraught, thinking that she will have this "diaper rash" (her words) on her face for years. She's on her way to the doctor... I've given her fish oil and put some hydrocortisone cream on her face to try to reduce the immune reaction. Hopefully, since she didn't get immersed, it won't be as bad as the first time.
I had warned her away from chlorinated pools after the first time, but she really likes to swim. Now she's agreed to stay out of chlorinated pools. It's stressful to see her so stressed out and anxious about this... her body and appearance are important to her, and why not? We all have our vanities, and that is a natural one. Any advice from this forum on treatment?
I truly believe that chlorine is a very dangerous substance, and should not be ingested or touched. It kills all life forms, which is why they put it in the water in the first place. It can react with proteins and other important biological molecules. Poison.
Re: economy, politics, society: I have a sense that some entity's hand is on the trigger, we're all playing Russian roulette, and the game is just getting serious.
Re: crime. The area where we used to live in Chicago is suffering a crime spree. Our neighbors across the alley here in Uff-dah land were just robbed. Their home was invaded while they were there (sleeping?) with their new baby. This indicates to me that desperation in increasing. Be attentive to your environment. Don't block it out with an iPod or cell phone. Did anyone see the news flash about the elderly couple killed by stray dogs in Georgia? Trivial but real. A means of self-defense does not have to go hand-in-hand with a fearful mind set. Think Eastern martial arts. Be well.
A good intro to chlorinated water's role in heart disease.
Take care of your hearts... you'll need them.
I just recently learned about using hydrogen peroxide to disinfect pool water. Brilliant. It occurs naturally in honey (bee honey). I guess that's why arab cultures have used it for centuries. . .
I'll be fairly close to Lake Michigan, which isn't the Greatest Lake, but it's in the top 5 (heeheehee)...
Publicus,
Run a bath with a cup full of epsom salts. Add to that 1/4 cup baking soda.
Soak in it.
It will push toxins to the surface.
Follow that with lavender and almond oil rubbed into her body tenderly by you.
Nina,
Read that farewell piece again.
Ripped a cord.
Don't know if it will open the parachute or cause it to remain closed.
Spoke to daughter today. Battling to survive. Why is it all so difficult she wants to know.
She just wants to simplify, change direction.
The rich get richer and we become more grateful for the scraps that come our way.
I read the "farewell, get off your ass" posting too and it seems a natural progression to eventually realize that while what we do here in cyberspace has a valuable function in terms of education, support, and founding of virtual communities, the heavy lifting that creates real change can probably only be done outside the digital realm.
It is for this reason I believe much is allowed to be circulated that otherwise would never be tolerated. Many will be satisfied to type away but not quite as many will have the time, energy, true passion, or guts to take action, so we chase our tails and rant to each other in a silly little circle.
Shoot off your mouth online and the cyber warriors may indeed take note, but it is allowed to continue. Show up at a town-hall meeting and and show the same passion and see where it gets you. Challenge the cop who pulled you over for no reason and see what that results in. It is a false tool for creating any real change, and while it may make us feel better for a bit (or possibly pushes one deeper into despair so they quit), as the line from a Jeff Beck song goes; "Much is being said my Lords, but nothing is being done".
For me, it is a constant jump from blog to blog, or to those alternative "news" sites searching for........? I have wasted so much time doing this it is depressing, but I can't seem to stop. How many words reinforcing our current state do we need to read, anyway?
The lasting value for me is in knowing that there are many others in the same state, and when I read your words, Nina, or see your art it makes it easier to deal with the pain. Salvation for me comes in seeing the beauty that exists amidst the rubble of this "civilization". Maybe it is more like a drug than a tool at this point.
Nota, I am so glad to "see" you again! Back to Michigan to be with your people? Perfect.
Gotta get back to my saved program, too. At least it is Cubase instead of Evony.
Z
Incredible comments today, everyone is being as open as we can be under the circumstances. I'm getting a clearer image of the person speaking, giving, lots of compassion going around.
John is so handsome, its hard to imagine he wouldn't have it easy whatever he does, but like all of us, he's equally scarred and conflicted. I honor his decisions and insights, but I get the idea he isn't going away completely because the blog remains, not so with Neptune1, who simply vanished. We shall see how these things unfold, shallan't we?
Its surprising we don't hear more about chlorine reactions. Its bleach fer crissakes, eats holes in clothes, dangerous stuff! Times have changed, no more pools unless its one you make and maintain yourself! Its not hard to do it right, but we can never rely on thinking something is all taken care of anymore. It isn't. I'm not going to go further on that because we all know very well already we are on our own like never before.
Beloved Susu, your daughter, this is her waking up time, sounds like a good moment for Escape from the Zombie Food Court. ...
You have snow? Cobras in snow?
NOTA, not gloomy here, laughing at your cookoo jokes. Did you understand your painting hold's Visible's essay? Not accidental. Love, outchon
Good morning Z, its still morning here, last night I was spending time on your site admiring that beautiful photo of the young Z and his bride. You've got a lot of guts, EARNED guts.
I agree with everything you just said here. That I live out in the middle of nowhere is a wasteful justification for (what is this? opium?) not painting passionately 24 hours a day. We don't know if there are think tanks enforcing new drugs or how it would be accurately described without sounding paranoid. But you are onto something.
They told us, remember that, 4th generation warfare where all the nonsense generally starts... how about, heh, psychotropic technologies? Whew.
Nina, thanks for that. The picture you mention is the one that I use to remind me of how things should be, and will be again soon. My wedding day was the easiest, most effortless and beautiful day of my life, and the feeling still lingers to this day. That it was spontaneous and took place in a foreign country tells me something about why.
If I am honest with myself here, I have to admit that on some level, I know our immediate future and the constant seeking of reassurance and the feeling of not being alone is simply to make the time go by in a less painful manner. Change has indeed arrived and I am both excited and terrified of how it will play out, but I want to stick around and see where this all leads. Have I become a doomer?
I can't even do my art anymore - there is no joy in playing my guitar or trying to write a song, and I have an album only needing to have 4 guitar solos added and mixing done but I fire up the music computer and I just don't feel it. The desire for outward expression has turned more toward an inward seeking, and while that has its frustrations, too, it is at least allows the expression of gratitude and love without any "pressure to produce" or expectation. It's like the previous experience of being a vessel for the expression of the Divine was to say "Look, I am here and can move through you if you allow me", and now the message is more like "Now that you know that I am here, let's get to know each other (heh) better". Something magic was revealed to me decades ago, and now beckons me closer, so I am following that.
As far as psychotropic tech, a solar flare or a good old EMP burst should be a good way to "kick" that habit, and it really is only a matter of time before many of these tough choices are made for us.
Thank you again for the kind words, amazingly beautiful, gifted and kind Nina.
P.S. I really dig the cows!
Z
Intel:
Interesting report/essay by an old-fashioned conservative (the type that actually wants to conserve things and cares about community).
Threw up a hasty post on my blog as to why your blog matters. All of your blogs.
Chlorine_Chlorine destroys delicate tryptomine neurotransmitters that are responsible for feelings of spiritual integration and contentment. Try to cut your salt use as much as possible also. SSRI's do NOT work even if they have 25% of the US population taking them. More corporate criminality.
Zoner_Quit waiting for the perfect solution and be your own shaman. Follow those links I sent to you. Don't waste years of your life buried by the pain like I did. There is help. Yeah, it's virtual but without it I would have checked out a year ago easy.
Publius, hmmmm. Z hit the nail on the head. Only online could you be exposed to Remus. If that was coming from the street corner, he'd be removed before paragraph two.
If everyone is having a guilt attack and thinking they have to rearrange yet again, Pangolin makes a very strong argument. I'm really glad he comes here and glad he's got a blog. In thinking it over, the way we met is similar to how Visible got so many of us going. Its destiny, really, the world got too big, remote and car dependent to physically unite with our species.
Those so inclined might say a little something on Publius' behalf - we are getting hit with some tornadoes here today from what seemed to be a mellow but persistent rain shower - (very strange) and the area reporting damage is VERY near where he lives.
I hope all is well, brother.
Z
No worries (in terms of us becoming like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz).
Yes, a tornado skipped around town today, damaging trees, the best record store in town, and some downtown buildings... but it seems nobody was injured.
And yes, it was strange... a tornado out of a normal everyday drizzle and rain.
I biked to work, but I imagine I will not be biking home... unless the skies miraculously clear, perhaps to some celestial trumpets or music by Vivaldi.
Publius_Yep, that's an interesting link. Too bad he has to blow it by quoting Ayn Rand. Randians are ultimately whack-jobs as the logical conclusion of their philosophy is that we should go 'round to all the nursing homes and pull all the plugs. All that brave 'got here by my bootstraps, got mine, sucks to be you b.s.'
The unequally distributed welfare of our forefathers has weighted the dice of each of our fates with unearned bonuses and hindrances that are beyond calculation. The simplistic calculation of human value as financial gain or loss is at the heart of why the empire is crumbling under the supervision of the dark side.
Obama for all his improvement over the GOP candidate pretty much gets the role of Jar-Jar binks in all of this. Well meaning but ineffective to date. A conservative with the seed of truth may not be able to grow the whole tree.
Pangolin et al.:
Yes, Randians are whack jobs. One-dimensional to say the least.
What's his name, Remus?, has some interesting and potentially valid things to say about what to look for if your government is indeed "out to get you..."
I don't buy his ideology, though. I don't want to buy anyone's ideology. It doesn't usually taste good after the first sip.
I've found, though, that the "whack jobs" are often the canaries in the coal mines... they are sensitive to trends, conspiracies, and tom-foolery that the rest of us might not otherwise see...
Perhaps the end is nigh, as the old signs used to say. Or at least, the end of the current operating system.
http://www.noblesoul.com/orc/texts/anthem/complete.html#A11.0
Ayn Rand--Read Chapter 11
Jj
When I was about 19 or 20, I was completely in thrall to Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged, the whole works... I was a whack job. I know, because I was there!
However, there are "whack jobs" on the left, on the right, forward and backward... they are everywhere that people, organizations and governments think they can control others through force or subterfuge, wherever mechanistic and anti-life thinking takes over and convinces egos that spontaneous spirit can be bottled, controlled, and "used" for ends other than the ends that organic life/spirit exists: for itself and the inherent joy in living, what Rousseau called the "sweet sentiment of existence."
If you require an ideology or consumer items or anything external to yourself in order to feel this sweet sentiment, then you've lost it... it's been destroyed or suppressed by civilization, and amour propre has won out over amour de soi.
Hi Nina:
Most interesting as always. As for John's impassioned closing statement, I would say that blogs are important because the real change first occurs internally. Behavior follows understanding.
I would also note (as per my "Survival+" ebook) that the State (run by elites) holds all the hammers, so we have to be careful about being nails which stick up.
Opting out, being self-reliant and helpful to others, possessing integrity above money--these are revolutionary IMO above some "taking it to the streets" theater which just enables repression and the transformation of protest into MSM entertainment.
Love your writing as always (and hence you too)--
charles
"f you require an ideology or consumer items or anything external to yourself in order to feel this sweet sentiment, then you've lost it... it's been destroyed or suppressed by civilization, and amour propre has won out over amour de soi."
What the hell am I going to do with these barbecue ribs and watermelon?
Humans are about as individual as ants. No man eats by his own efforts alone. The body comes with somebody else's effort putting the food on your first plate and you did nothing to add to that.
i come here for beautifully expressed ideas and art and community. i dont think that by doing so i am making progress toward turning things around. in a way, i tend to take an eastern view that things are going to go down they way they are going to go down.
i dont believe that the economy as defined by the culture is coming back. yet i spent three days this week updating my art portfolio website because even if the world is shit on the off chance i might get a gig before TSHTF i can get a much needed shed and a ram pump for my creek with the dough while it is still able to buy something.
reading johns final post reminded me of the days that followed the bailout/shakedown/global theft. knowing that it was the rip off of all time and feeling despair at all of us just standing there like little steers in a feedlot waiting to get on the ramp to slaughter. i informed my husband that week i would be moving to the mountains to start the real "retirement plan" which is to eke out as much beauty and goodness as i can while i can - growing food, raising the chicks and making it my business to know every trail in the cohutta as best i can.
he cannot conceive of a time when he doesnt get up and go to work with things progressing as they always have in a growth trajectory. initiating discussions of suspicious vaccines, the evil that is big AG/Monsanto, the FedRes, puppet leadership, bullshit education and multi fronts of genocide are met with complete shut down and withdrawal.
so i come here. for the company. and for complex and astute observations:
"flatter versions of Orange County madness, barrel-tiled, master-planned, underwater turnkey-tract burial grounds with paper shredders built into the breakfast nooks"
and the "thousand points of darkeness" oh i loved that one, nina.
until we are in the hills with the last of the jerky and ammo i'll still visit my friends on the net.
nina, my dad has a small herd of Zebu down in indian river country florida. have you ever seen them? they are small african cattle and are pistolleros! (little man syndrome). i love the photo of the watusis. for a second - i thought the watusis were the skinny mailboxes on artlife west gallery.
Yeah, Ayn Rand sunk her teeth in my right ass cheek too, when I was about the same age. But Carlos Castenada intervened and pried me loose, with a little help from Mesquilito.
POA
Nina,
It was summer last week.
Then we had 3 days of winter, including snow up on the mountains.
Today it would appear is going to be a spring day.
My dear Charles, Aloha, I am as usual deeply honored by your visit. You put realism and vision to the discussion. We would be lost in the woods without your contributions. You've got unfettered balance. This goes right back to knowing the enemy if you want to be the victor, which is how we met.
From The Art of Survival, Taoism and the Warring States: ... The Taoists developed their philosophy during an extended era of turmoil known as the Warring States period of Chinese history. One of their main principles runs something like this: if you're tall and stout and strong, then you'll call attention to yourself. And because you're rigid--that is, what looks like strength at first glance--then when the wind rises, it snaps you right in half.
If you're thin and ordinary and flexible, like a willow reed, then you'll bend in the wind, and nobody will notice you. You'll survive while the "strong" will be broken, either by unwanted attention or by being brittle...
Thank you. The internet works extremely well for this kind of thing, its not the first time I've shared your insights, either, mostly it happens waiting in the vet's office mingling with strangers or other offline situations. They eat this up like they'd been starving for something real.
Nina_It must be your silken presentation because when I start talking about the true structure behind this mess people look panicky.
That or it's the fact that I look like a 250 lb. muscular garden gnome; and my face gets red when I'm excited.
I keep trying that invisible, bend like a reed, stuff but nobody's buying except the police. Somewhere in sixteen years of Tai Chi practice I got cop repellent body language. Go figure.
You should read the whole link. I think you could identify with it.
Nina, I'm still chuckling about "paper shredders built into the breakfast nooks"--somehow that one line captures the entire essence of American absurdity.
It also shows how humor will get us through... a 3rd world lifestyle is really quite nice as long as you're "middle class 3rd world" i.e. shelter, family, food.
Re-read "Taoism and the Warring States" at Nina's prompting. Charles has it exactly right. A twelve year old boy with a bicycle is the best scout a village clan can have. He'll know if a single hammer strike or rock fall is out of place in 'his' valley. Survivalists who don't help the neighbors won't last long.
I fully subscribe to this hypothesis by another name. I call it "putting up the chairs at church." Every meeting you go to hang back a little and help put up the chairs and wash the coffee cups. Or help with whatever grungy task makes the event possible but appears time-consuming and thankless. Do this often enough and you will be welcome wherever people know you as they know you will not willingly be a burden.
I've got an obsidian hand ax that I'm keeping no matter what. Everything else is bonus.
Nina - YES. I got it.
Pangolin and other Rand haters... I'm kinda partial to Ayn Rand. I'm a thinker. I devote a great deal of my personal time & energy to my community. I see the ills of this world, and I want no part of it. I also see the value in one working and striving for theirself! The value of a man keeping the fruits of his own labor. The inherent value of competion.
People who are raised being given the finer things have the same predilections toward being "owed something" as the vast majority of those raised being given the lesser things (welfare recipients).
I have lived on both ends of the spectrum. Abject poverty and a very comfortable life
with great leisure. No one gave me what I have. I had assistance from great people along the way, but I earned what is mine, and no man has the right to take that for the "greater good"!!!
I loved that CHS essay on Taoism when it came out last year - I think I had just discovered him.
Hi Charles!
I'm not an Ayn Rand hater... the universe is multi-faceted, and there is true injustice in not being allowed to keep the fruits of one's labor. I think we can all agree that the current PTB crime spree is interfering with that.
@Pangolin: I'm not going to speak for Rousseau any more than I have. He can speak for himself... such an original and beautiful thinker, as well as musician and artist, doesn't need my puny abilities to defend him. By claiming that there is an inherent sweetness to life and existence without needing anything from others, he was NOT claiming that beings did not need external inputs of food, shelter, and energy.
He also would agree with you on human individuality, to some extent. He thought that the first humans didn't bother to try to individualize themselves.
Regardless, his main point, which I am convinced by, is that increasing specialization, culture, and corruption leads to a deep-seated inauthenticity and phoniness to social existence. Not for everyone... not everyone is able, or wants to, give up their autonomy. Autonomy is a value to cherish and foster, even if one believes that humans are no more individual than ants. Even an ant has autonomy, or can make certain limited choices within its realm. Which seed to choose? Which drop of honey to eat?
My main beef with Randians is that they tend to act like cultists, and are very intolerant and self-righteous to the point that one could imagine them rounding up those darn "collectivists"...
I'll end with a quote from Jean Jacques:
"Falsehood has an infinity of combinations, but truth has only one mode of being."
I don't understand how one could deduce that image of "rounding up all those darned collectivists". I guess the coloring with which one sees the world, affects the way they perceive the written word, as well.
I take away the idea that every man can (and indeed should) take responsibility for him/her self. That every one of us is free to choose for themselves. Thus, each of us can choose to be a collectivist, socialist, communist, etc. The point at which this becomes a conflict is when one groups tries to force belief on an individual.
The link I posted is one of the few Rand writings I liked--something that resonated with me--it was shortly after reading Age of Reason by Tom Paine---Boy, stuff was flying off the walls and through the ceiling at that point in time--it just kept coming, and I just kept soaking it up--stuff cam in that flew back out the window after I propelled it that way--
What a wonderful time that was in my growth----
Jj
To be clear, I'm not an objectivist, or even a devotee of Rand --- just partial to some of her ideas.
Thomas Paine is my hero, but I didn't agree with all of his ideas either. He was a socialist, which - I'm sure everyone has gathered, I am not.
I'm perfectly okay with voluntary socialism. Just leave a mechanism by which folks like me, can opt out. I'd prefer to take care of myself, and help the world, as --- and when, I see fit.
"I'm perfectly okay with voluntary socialism. Just leave a mechanism by which folks like me, can opt out. I'd prefer to take care of myself, and help the world, as --- and when, I see fit. "-notamobster
Stay off the roads; some damned socialist paved them by extorting gasoline and property tax money from innocent property holders.
OTOH Randian philosophy works quite well for deep ocean sailors. As long as you have a good eyepatch and a parrot.
Government inherently involves small thefts and coercion presumably to prevent larger thefts. It's when gov't takes more than brigands could be expected to get problems arise.
Tyranny is the weight of the hand on our backs rather than it's presence. Even for the nomadic hunter-gatherer existence of the San or pre-contact Australian aborigines there is no human existence free of the coercive demands of others.
Reality trumps ideology.
I have the option to not pay those taxes. Under a socialist system, I could get by with not paying any --- any --- taxes whatsoever. I could avoid sales tax on groceries by using food stamps. I could avoid property tax by not owning property. I could avoid gasoline tax, by - you guessed it, riding a bicycle.
The basis of community is voluntary association. People get together and agree to give up "x" in exchange for easing the burden of "y". Tyranny comes when individuals are forced to give up "x" to provide them with "Y".
People always have the opportunity to change things. I am a firm believer that "just power derives from the consent of the governed". Our leaders can only take from us, that which we allow them to take.
Our system as it is operating today, is not the system our founders had in mind. Fractional reserve banking is the cause of most of todays ills.
"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money" ~(some guy who was way smarter than I)A..deT...
NtAmbster- Aw, c'mon. Now you're just quoting talking points; and you're ignoring my pirate allusions. :sulk:
Everybody else: Joe Bageant has hit another one out of the park. Check it out:
http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2009/08/the-entertainment-value-of-snuffing-grandma.html
Nicely relevant as he points out that we can't see or act on reality in the US due to the layers of ideology fogging everything up.
P* - I will respectfully decline the argument. I've run through it a bazillion times, and no longer have the energy. I am a firm believer in self-reliance and not coercing people into "helping" each other.
I wish you well, sir/ma'am.
This Randian controversy reminds me that it is CRITICALLY important to not let such philosophical/abstract disputes get in the way of the bonds and communities we form online and in the physical world. Rand might disagree, but I would posit that what really counts is the willingness to help each other, learn from each other, and support each other.
It's as though as the situation in the coercive system we are all trapped in gets worse, the religious controversies fade in importance...
P* was for Pangolin...
That IS a good one Pangolin, thanks. Bageant must hold the patent on rainex. What healthcare "debate"? We're just seeing mob wars, again. Obama clearly isn't a match for these thugs. Anytime thugs pick up the scent of reform, we see another contrived debate. What is debatable about torture? Waterboarding? War crimes, crimes against humanity, hacking tar sands, outsourcing, chemtrails, what is debatable about widespread use of antidepressants promulgated by the thugs concealing disastrous consequences? Nothing at all. Its mere thug infotainment, borne from thug war world-view, as real as say, True Blood.
Just remember that politicians are hired to put on a show and keep the ball in the air so that you watch it while the other guy is reaching for your wallet--
It's all theater---lines are scripted, rebuttals scripted, and the outcome already decided long before the show takes the stage and you take your seat
Jj
Recommended in the econ intel department.
Not being familiar with Rand's work at all, I have to admit that the first Rand I ever read was the segment referenced above. My first reaction was "what a dick" but there were kernels of truth in there, too.
While the words made a certain sense from a purely logical POV, there was a seeming lack of a certain something. Wait, I think I see it.......compassion? That's not quite it, but it comes close. It would seem that one would need to be MR. Spock to take this to the fullest, however. It is really the ultimate "seeing you as the other" attitude, but I guess we all value our fellow human beings differently. Directed toward the powers structures, I would have to agree with the attitude. Directed towards those victimized by the power structure that have not the ability to overcome it, I'm not down. The structure is the problem here, not those that can't overcome it.
I also don't believe that there are too many that would simply ride another's coattails out of pure laziness (but I see the role that a true predator plays in this equation), and believe that if folks were truly given the chance to support themselves and had the support (define that how you will) of those around them that we would all be much better off - and there would be no power structure in the first place. It would be seen as the predatory destroyer that it is.
I don't know really, about much of anything. I have to agree that no one is entitled to FORCE another to share of their goodies, but then again, it seems like a certain type of circling the wagons and the end result of such a program might eventually leave one acting out the role of Will Smith in "I am Legend". It would also require that individuals have the capacity to say "I have enough, I need no more for myself". I mean, how far do you take the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" model? Some people need help, and there will hopefully always be those who are willing to give where a need is shown. Besides, how real is it to try and make an island of one's self in this day and age? Claim self-sufficiency all you want but we shun others at our own peril, or that is what my gut tells me (could be the chili as well). No one arrived here purely on their own. I guess if the attitude is "no one can make me do it, but I reserve the right to do so on my own" it makes sense, but I fear I am not smart enough to see the intent in those lines. I like it more "street" somehow like Joe Bageant.
Bageant is a hoot - one of those cats that can make you chuckle while he is slipping the horrors of our situation under your nose. Sneaky, cheeky bastard. And he doesn't take himself so damn seriously.
Oh how I ramble - my apologies.
Z
What I get from "Anthem/Ayn Rand" is that it is my decision who I associate with and share with--It is my decision who I choose to walk with, or not--and when I choose not to, I don't need to give anyone an explanation--
I will not allow myself to be guilted into anything--religion does enough of that for all of us--
If you are of like mind, and spirit, we will go together for as long as we both choose to and part ways when the time comes--no thanks, or apologies necessary--we don't owe anyone anything--if we choose to do something, or not, it is our choice, not the governments or some religion.
As Nina says, "Do No Harm"--it's a good starting point--but I would add that if someone/something is trying to do you harm, you have the right to defend yourself in whatever measure is needed--
I do believe that we are drawn to certain people/situations--call it "like frequency" good or bad--
I also believe in the female intuition and the power that it holds if interpreted correctly by a wise woman---
Pay attention in these days to the female writers--and females you know--ask them what they are feeling--get a sense of the lay of the land--especially (but not exclusively) mothers---there is something there--keep sharing girls--
Jj
oops, maybe I should have said "ladies"--another word came to me that how you feel--that intuition--is going to be local--it won't be how things are in the next city/area--just passing it along for what it's worth--
Our world is going to get very small soon--as far as the eye can see will be our focus--and an intense focus it will be--
Jj
From Thoreau:
"Let us settle ourselves, and work and wedge our feet downward through the mud and slush of opinion, and prejudice, and tradition, and delusion and appearance, that alluvion which covers the globe....through church and state, through poetry and philosophy and religion, till we come to a hard bottom and rocks in place, which we can call reality, and say, This is, and no mistake: and then begin......
It's not often these days that I'm excited by new finds on the Internet. I just keep coming back here, and a few other places.
But I've discovered a writer and activist with whom I feel a kinship.
Check him out. His name is Paul Kingsnorth.
And this debate he had recently with someone I'm not too fond of, George Monbiot.
Here's a new group my newfound writer has started, and their manifesto.
Su, thanks for that.
A needed reminder from another wise feminine perspective.
Z
Publius_While I didn't read every word that debate has the feel of a pillowfight between to very tired old men. They can barely get a swing around for their powder puff impacts.
Personally I prefer the writings of Paul Chefureka, http://www.paulchefurka.ca/, or Jay Hansen, http://dieoff.org/, neither of whom flinch from a logical extension of current trends in our environmental destruction. The debts already written by the Federal Reserve cannot be paid back by the planet in it's current state.
Meanwhile the google search: "climate, faster than expected" will show you that the sticky bit of the planet that all the life comes from is rapidly degrading. We can hold on to the small comforts of each day and prepare ourselves as much as possible but many more places are going to look like Haiti in the near future.
Someday soon a military or political psychopath is going to try clearing the land with a virus. I don't thing swine flu was it unless we find later that it sterilizes after passing through. There will be another.
"Our system as it is operating today, is not the system our founders had in mind. Fractional reserve banking is the cause of most of todays ills." notamobster
I couldn't agree more! And fractional reserve banking is diametrically opposed to all things socialist and in many ways it the poster child for wild-west Libertarianism. It is the epitome of selfishness as practiced by simple-minded devotees of all things rightist and faux-individualist in America today.
I laugh out loud at the peculiar way Americans have been trained like Pavlov's dogs to bark at the word "socialist" without a clue as to its meaning or intent while slathering over the myths of "individualism" and "self-reliance" because there are no such things in this world but that exist in the minds of the deluded.
We are NOT islands.
Socialism is the greatest good for the greatest number - it is NOT communism.
Pangolin nailed it in his rebuttal to your adolescent view of Ayn Rand and her cartoon philosophies, notamobster.
“OTOH Randian philosophy works quite well for deep ocean sailors. As long as you have a good eyepatch and a parrot.” I laughed out loud at the wit displayed by his comment.
Sorry for the harsh critique, but I'm sick and tired of people who drink the Koolaid and from that moment on find themselves unable to break free from their harmful conditioning.
And just for the record - I too, fell under the spell of Ayn Rand.
But I was a teenager at the time. It’s been decades since her naked selfishness disguised as altruism was able to attract more than my contemptuous attention.
If you are interested in learning more about Ayn Rand, her mile-wide, inch-deep philosophy and her noxious hold over her devotees, (who include the biggest bankster of them all, Alan Greeenspan, btw), you could do worse than to read "The Cult of Ayn Rand" by Jeff Walker.
It’s never too late to come to your senses and start pointing your barrels at your real, not your imaginary enemies.
And Nina, thank you once again for being the catalyst behind another fascinating exchange of opinions and ideas.
Oh shit, Rand is/was a WOMAN?!?
I really know nothing , so I think I need to shut up and just listen again. Words are really a poor way to communicate, I fear.
Be well. I love you all.
Z
Hi Arthur! I had been a little concerned. I was on the verge of asking you if you wanted me to take down your quote thinking maybe I'd sent you into a shy attack. I see that isn't possible. Whew.
arthurdecco: you truly have no idea of who I am, or what I believe. A year ago I would have engaged on this issue. I fear that time and energy are in short supply these days (too busy working for the greater good of my family and community).
Adieu...
Nina - my love remains.
Its okay Z. I got into Rand only for architectural interests, it was destiny that Bob Marley took over. I always find it fascinating that so many fine minds come together here. Score another one for the web.
Staceeeeeeeeeeeeeeyyyyyyyyy, I have done all I can to encourage people to get familiar with each other's profiles, there are a few cases that's not possible, especially with the nonblog-owning set, although arthur is long known to me from the Fireteacher's favorite blog, TWN. So let me help here because I may well be the only one left who remembers all your transitions, an incredibly tragic past, made-by-hand into a beautiful present.
And now, I've just discovered no one can know who you are and where you are coming from since you took down your blogs.
Abusive childhood raised in drug poverty, joined the military, a strict Constitutionalist, small business partnership, lost a child, remarried, looked around, started anew appeciating the small goodnesses while placing you and your family on safer ground. I've probably gotten the order wrong, but that's just a general overview.
One more thing, we're only discussing concepts - nothing more. If I judge something to be personally demeaning, I would turn on the moderation tools. I don't see I have to do that in this mix at all.
Love, outchon
Bulletin: John @ Survival Acres has just decided to put out an email newsletter . I signed up. Link also available on my blog homepage under Recently Updated Blogs.
Nina - I thought you knew that I deleted them. Sorry. That order was pretty close to right. Nice encapsulation. It's a hollywood style, bad kid makes good story... hahaha!!!!
My only interests at this point are working, helping others and getting moved back to Michigan. I was able to give another (of like mind) 64 days worth of food for him and his wife, and daughter.
I have spent my life climbing out of a hole, and have made it out. I just can't abide the idea, of someone thinking they're entitled to any part of that. Call it "naked selfishness" if you will. I hear all kinds of people blathering on about how the govt should do this or that to cure societies ills. The govt can't keep it's own ledger clean. Welfare... I'm sorry - social programs are only availabe through 2 funding sources: taxes or printing money from thin air (which is in itself a hidden tax).
Thievery is wrong, whether it's you taking from me, or the government taking from me. You cannot give someone something for nothing, and expect them to change. I HAVE SEEN THIS FIRST HAND!!!! THE MAJORITY OF THE "POOR" PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY DO NOT WANT TO CHANGE. THEY GROW UP IN A SYSTEM OF ENTITLEMENT (GOVT PROGRAMS) AND THEY PERPETUATE THIS SYSTEM BY DOING THE SAME THING. I can assure you, that my story is the exception, not the rule. Most don't want to change. (I could go for pages of this, but I'm done. I love you, and your forum.) I didn't take any of this "personally", per se - but it does strike at the core of who I am.
Thank you Stacy, all clear now, arthur, arthur, come in ARTHURDECCO...
interesting thread once again. i love it over here. thanks nina. (and for the kind words regarding the lost dog.) whenever i think of ayn rand, i visualize patricia o neal in the fountainhead. they were quite similar physically.
i read the bageant piece and liked it, but it would be hard to top the zombie food court which covered it all so perfectly.
Well now. It's a good thing the rich welfare queens don't cost us anything is it? At one point in the last ten years the local rice farmers collected more in Federal subsidies than the rice crop was worth. That didn't include the cost of water projects or favored customer pricing on electricity. Tax discounts on fuel or any of the other special deals available only if you have 500 plus acres of rice land.
Yeah, those lazy poor people. Let's sterilize them and then put the ones who refuse to work in re-education camps.
Do you smell pork cooking? What's that familiar tune.......
Springtime for....
Pangolin, are you telling me CV farmers are getting deals on power and water? My oh my, I learn something new every day. This explains why my companion always says "They're diverting the power again" every time there is a power failure. And more, this would suggest Las Vegans probably detest California farmers. Woh ho, thanks for the light switch. No matter how long I'm here, it feels like I just arrived.
Only last weekend did I learn those tractor marks through the pastures are not there to service the needs of livestock, they are fire breaks and they work really well!
People on the east coast honestly don't know these things. OK, that's no excuse, I get real drifty spiritual on the beautiful landscape and facts on the ground sometimes evade me.
It appears there is a lesson there Chickory ... something about going ahead regardless of fear we can't top ourselves? And now look, Mr. Bageant even has a newer one! Yes, it just appeared on the bloglist.
You should have kept the Stella post around. It was FULL of lessons. How easy it is when someone considers what someone else might be feeling, when the belittling and threat is removed from communication, no "if you don't do this within so many days this animal goes to the pound".
For everyone who didn't see the post, Chickory found a dog. She made a poster with the dog's picture looking pretty happy. The words on the poster only said "Don't worry. She's safe. Call -----". The dog was reunited with its owner that very evening.
Chickory, what do you think would have taken place if you had written "Lost Dog, pitbull abandoned in a midtown parking lot, hungry and thirsty. Will not get along with my livestock. Urgent you call ----". Right away a chain of events would have begun that would have put Stella into the pound, delaying and complicating any possibility of reuniting the animal with its person, negative and potentially lethal consequences which you eliminated with your calm and thoughtful deed.
It will come back around to you somehow, if it hasn't already. Wasn't there a play date in the wings?
When I originally read Rand I was in the early stages of my exodus from the womb. I was living in my first home independent of my parents. Very deeply into my first love affair, and experiencing the amazing collusion of love and sexual compatibility. Outside the home, I was serving an apprenticeship with one of the foremost makers of fine custom furniture on the west coast, and attending the Art Center College of Design.
Who, in my position, at this stage in their life, would not buy into Rand's elitist and narcissistic spin on self worth?
Only after life gifted me with obstacle and extreme hardship did I recognize the folly of Rand's over-stated power of self. When one is breaking into cabins to escape the snow, and experiencing the terrible loneliness and helplessness of addiction, the power of self becomes exposed as a fiction.
As Arthur points out, we are not islands. Left to our own devices, absent the power of community, we self destruct.
We are all great in our own way. But this greatness is dependent upon our fellows, who are the true beneficiaries of our assets. Individual greatness is a community effort.
POA
Ah, the Rand bashing--for some of her stuff, I can see it--for what I posted, I just can't.
"When I was young, and immature"......ouch--lol
Boy, they really shoved that guilt trip so far up your ass it's beginning to see daylight out of your mouth
1. Do you have the right to choose who you associate with?
2. Do you have the right to share with whom you choose?
Very simple questions--No one is saying that you shouldn't associate with, or share with anyone--although that is certainly a choice--one that you should make for yourself--not have made for you---or be forced into
Looks like people falling into the trap that has been set for centuries--you can't do anything on your own, and heaven (lol) forbid you make a decision and take responsibility for it--
Look at any religion, look at government, heck, look at AA---all of them say that you don't have the power-you are weak, "it's not your fault"-you have to believe in jesus, god/God, midgets, trolls......believe in anything but the fact that you get yourself into the shit--it wasn't the devil, it wasn't god testing you....you simply did it.....
And if you choose to extricate yourself from said shit, or simply avoid it, don't ever take credit for it yourself--that would go against the power of the man behind the curtain--
If the shit hits the fan, it would be an honor to be with notamobster--I know he would have my back--a man to be trusted--those who disagree can hold candlelight vigils and write sonnets........and discuss how enlightened they are.
Jj
Signed up for the newsletter--maybe there is hope for me yet....
Jj
More Rand bashing.
1. Do you have the right to choose who you associate with?
In practical terms, no.
Only if you choose to be a hermit. In every other circumstance I can imagine association with a single other individual implies association with multiple individuals. I suppose you could set up an X party exclusive hermitage but each X+1 number greatly increases the chances that you are coerced into accepting an otherwise, non-acceptable association.
2. Do you have the right to share with whom you choose?
Sure you do. Until they wave cold steel in your face. Then you get to choose "I got mine" or ventilation. The "sharers" always seem to have more steel than the Randians. A mystery that.
Ideology, not as useful as we think, no?
Jj, you seem to be afflicted with a contrary nature given to simplistic blather. Its why I initially cast you as a gnat, fodder for the hungry thrust of the swallow's beak.
Ability is inate, but skill is more often than not taught. There can be no greater impediment to learning than a man's inability to cast aside his ego.
There is nothing "macho" about Rand's ideology. The irony here is that in seeking to defend the power of the individual, you use notamobster as the avenue through which you seek the security of a community.
Yes, yes, yes Nina, I'm finally here again... You just might not like it. heh heh...
notamobster, you are correct. I have no idea who you are.
I can only know and respond to the sliver of your public face offered up to us on this blog.
From what you've written I mostly want to like you - you seem honest, curious, capable, dissatisfied with the status quo and willing to work for what you want out of life like many of the rest of us who are also reading and contributing here on Nina’s blog. I have no axe to grind with you. Yet. lol
My comments to you were not the beginnings of a flame war but what I thought was the end of a conversation dealing with a woman who, in my opinion, has done more to destroy real independence and individuality in the modern western world than any other single individual in modern America’s cultural history. I understand the limitations of the medium we’ve chosen as our default means of communication so I can sympathize with your difficulty in hearing the intended tone of my earlier post. I intended you no harm or insult, despite my obvious impatience with what I considered your ill-thought out appreciation of Ayn Rand’s writing.
Ayn Rand was and continues to be an integral cog in the American myth-making machine designed in fits and starts by the modern day American Oligarchy who are intent on viciously stamping out any movement towards the kinds of real originality and authentic individuality that led to America becoming the Can Do capital of the world over the past two centuries.
Because originality and Can Do-ness are the enemies of those who control you now through the media lens they own outright – the lens through which Ayn Rand, and the legions of other frauds and imposters have been foisted on the uncritical and now uncurious youth of America - youth made impatient to hear their own feeble, disconnected, uneducated voices raised in a world filled to the brim with the Screeching Me-Me-Me-Myth concocted by scum-sucking bottom feeders paid off by your enemies to deliberately undermine the cohesive oneness that once was the astounding result of “America as a Melting Pot”.
Under the direction of its enemies, the Melting Pot that-used-to-be-America has become the slivered, shattered, broken-into-its-constituent-parts-Amerika because hyphenated Amerikans are so much easier to control than Americans.
Almost 20 years ago I wrote a song about how the wailing, hand-wringing, navel-gazing, selfish, unfocused youth of America desperately needed to change their attitude if they were to succeed in a world designed to make them fail:
Nothing comes to the Meek
You start with nothing
you learn to compete –
learn how to be heard
through a thousand stomping feet -
learn how to grab at the chance
to dance out in the streets -
learn how to separate your troubles
from the wonders that you seek
because
Nothing comes to the meek
No, nothing comes to the meek
Nothing comes to the meek, no, no, no
You stand for something
when you’re not afraid to weep -
when you clean your corners
of mistakes you won’t repeat.
You get respect, not neglect
For landing on your feet.
You make a good friend
when you can bend
and still stay complete.
Nothing comes to the meek, no, no, no,
Nothing comes to the meek no oh oh oh oh
No.
Nothing comes to the meek.
…
(It was recorded, wowed over and never released. What a surprise…)
cont'd
The innovative thinkers who created the actual, (not the modern-mythical) version of American supremacy of the mid 19th to the mid 20th centuries were polar opposites of Ayn Rand’s cardboard cut-out, re-named-with-WASP-names, Old Testament-style, translated-from-the-Russian, patriarchal “heroes”. The real innovators of America worked together co-operatively, as equal members of their individual-but-still-cohesive social collectives which had spread themselves out over the vastness of America, secure in the knowledge they were a part of a modern social miracle. In those days, Americans co-operated with each other, spreading out the effects of their failures and their successes. Yes there were rich people –even extremely rich people. Yes, there were very poor people but the homeless millions of today only appeared on the scene after their collective, cooperative society had been rendered unrecognizable by the corruption of their political system by the foreign banksters and their agents who were allowed to rewrite American foreign and domestic policy to pad their bottom lines by taking control of the United States’ “Central Bank”, which they ended up owning outright early on in the 20th century.
You mustn’t forget the movies most Americans have confused with History were bankrolled by Russian Jewish businessmen, (who were, incidentally, utterly ignorant of the true history of America), during the 30’s, 40’s and 50’s of the 20th century as their means of getting rich off the hopes, dreams and desperations of regular Joe American citizens, who were already on their way to being marginalized within their own country by people who contemptuously wished them ill behind closed doors.
Speaking of people who honestly wished Americans ill, let’s get back to Ayn Rand for a moment:
She was a fright wig monster who gleefully destroyed the lives of those around her – even those who considered her a trusted friend because she enjoyed the feeling of power it gave her. She was a liar of monumental proportions. She was an intellectual gnat, championed by the right only because her ridiculous philosophy of “Objectivism” suited them to a "T" - hiding as it did their own well-organized, socialistic banding-together-in-the-shadows-and-cesspools-of-finance to destroy any and all of the real freedoms fought for by the truly individualistic thinkers her badly written books actually mocked rather than encouraged.
cont'd
Notamobster, no person can be an island in a world as complex as the one we live in. All sentient people, not just powerful people, deserve the power that flows from cooperation. Everyone needs to work together to protect their commonly held interests. And that includes you and me and everyone else posting here, our families, our friends and even the neighbors we don’t yet know, short, tall, skinny, fat, smart, stupid. We’re all in this together…
Part and parcel to our commonly held influence are the taxes we pay into the kitty for services. Taxes are the glue that bind well-run societies together. Just don’t confuse taxes designed to improve the condition of citizens with the monies collected to fund wars that exclusively profit the wealthy, the powerful and the sociopathologically venal who do their bidding. Those monies are not taxes – they are theft. It isn’t taxes you should have a problem with. Or those of us who approve of paying them. It’s the thieves stealing our tax dollars to enrich themselves at our expense that should be the target of your venom and your eloquence.
You obviously can’t fight the Ponzi scheme that now passes for national “government” by yourself. But you can band together with your neighbors and conspire to elect a single honest judge willing to prosecute the small town crooks intent on feeding at the public trough or corrupting the halls of your local government. You can run for some minor office yourself and from that modest position of influence make sure that the contracts awarded to pave your local streets are awarded on merit and NOT, wink wink nudge nudge, because some local crook is paying off the Mayor or the head of the local building department. But to do so you have to learn how to cooperate, compromise and protect your neighbor’s back from attacks from above while they do the same for you. Because the crooks, contrary to all commonly held delusions, are ALL Above. You’ll only ever find victims and controlled-from-above vermin Below.
If everyone followed my advice, (which I have taken to heart and have followed myself for 20 years), you’d have your country back in a generation and then you could get serious about removing the parasites from your larger, national body politic. Start thinking a bit like the Chinese – if not in their terms of centuries, at least think in terms of decades. Instant gratification is so…so… so…teenage American.
But you’re never going to be able to do anything to re-take your country if you continue to believe in the myth of American individualism – in the myth that you are personally a self-sufficient island in a desert sea. Our enemies work together. So should we.
You’re going to have to amend your opinions to allow for some joining together for the common good. And that means you’re going to have to learn to be less selfish and less insecure. And that will only come from trusting those who share your world with you daily. And from learning to ignore the myths your enemies have been screeching in your ear since you were a baby.
Well, well, arthurdecco, you can just spank me with a wet noodle and call me a thinker of no ambition. I am truly humbled.
Here, I am content to point out that naked individualism can't work on it's most basic level. You get up and show us why we should care, wrap it in historical context and serve it forth with a slice of apple pie.
Damn. You GO boy.
anonymous--not the balls to mention who you are? i apologize if you're female--definitely a control freak though--maybe you should work on that a bit before you start throwing rocks in your glass house--there is something that bothers you a lot more about me than what you have written---doesn't even seem like the former "gnat writings"--perhaps you are evolving--or plagiarizing
perhaps you should take the time to reread what i wrote and you might see that i would choose to be alongside mobster--like i choose to be alongside others--i am by no means an island--there are those i choose to be with, and those i choose not to be with--is that simple enough--or should i repeat it
i choose who i work with, i choose who i hire for our company--i choose who i do, and don't socialize with--that seems pretty simple to me--why would you be with someone you don't want to be with?
as far as cold steel, i have my own thank you--and will waive it as needed--
no one is saying that people should not work together to achieve common goals--just choose your partners wisely--
Jj The Ego Gnat
Oh my, dear me. I forgot to sign my last post. Apparently, in Jj's opinion, it was a self-neutering act.
It occurs to me that when you aren't treading water furiously, you are engaged in a backstroke. Its a shame, really, for no one can keep such an effort going for long before they sink. Unless, of course, someone throws them a rope.
POA
Pangolin, Thank you. One person swayed enough to think about it is enough for me...
POA, Ya make me laugh, bub - there's no suffering fools in your neighborhood is there? (wink)
Jj, A word of advice: There are no rhetorical heights POA will not scale to win an argument.
Trust me.
Give it up now. ROTFLMAO!
Hmm, POA. There's a koan in there somewhere.
If an Ayn Rand follower tumbles over a cliff and lands, injured, on a ledge, above a fatal drop.......
Do you throw him a rope?
Can you attach a note demanding all his possessions and future income in exchange for rescue? Is a slavery or death contract fair if that's what he publicly espouses?
Is it truly slavery if the slave is convinced he is working of his free will; do we ignore the facts of the circumstances?
They don't teach philosophy in public schools for a reason.
Nina said: "I don't want my friends to experience the inconvenience of comment moderation because of your deceits, although it may be the wisest move at this time..."
Uhmmm...no... it would NOT be "the wisest move at this time", Nina.
What's inconvenience compared to the horrors of censorship?
Don't you think ideas should be allowed to float free so that they can be examined and challenged from all angles?
I do.
Please reconsider. (...if you haven't already, that is.)
Nina_ This conversation about Rand has been skirting around something we haven't yet said.
It is obvious to me from your paintings and writings that you view life, even the pain, as a gift. Your work screams "Look, look at this beauty that is given to you unasked and unearned. Look at the beauty of the cow and the urn and the field and thorn. See the beauty of green field and dry grass."
A gift to treasure and share.
There is another thought; a meme. It says "look at that, I WANT that. I want to control that. That could be MINE. This is MINE and that could be mine too." I can build more things to be mine. I can buy things to be mine. I can trade things to be mine. I want the beauty to be mine. It's a monkey trap. The closed hand never appreciates the beauty of the treasure once it is grasped.
A gift unearned to be shared. A rose in the neighbors garden. The light on the barn. A stranger welcomed on the road.
A treasure to be grasped. A fence to be walked. A territory to be conquered and defended. My friends in my space. A warm lodge free from enemies.
We must choose. As a culture. One path has a great darkness behind it. A doom. The doom has it's beauty too and that's the really scary truth to it.
Some people, still see both paths. Reserve their final choice......
And now, a funny,
Ayn Rand as a Mom (stolen from http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/002981.html, thanks be to Google)
The Top Ten Reasons You Don't Want Ayn Rand as Your Mom
10: Her not-so-secret disappointment that you weren't able to operate a speedboat the first time you saw one, even after watching the help do it for ten whole minutes.
9: Birthday gifts: Erector sets and a "Lil' Smelter" kit.
8: Pushing you to date her young male followers after she's "vetted" them is really kind of creepy.
7: At bedtime, reads you The Giving Tree as a cautionary tale.
6: Wouldn't speak to you for a week after you admitted that you kind of like useless ornamentation.
5: Her "Birds and Bees" chat to you sounds like a particularly seamy scene in a film by David Fincher.
4: Always ends arguments by throwing down a bunch of pictures of modern buildings; seems angry that you don't see the logic.
3: Dismisses your desire to visit Disneyland as "Anti-Life." She's right, of course, but you're still disappointed.
2: Tears down the house rather than let you choose the wallpaper for your room.
1: Your Babysitter: Alan Greenspan.
I have no shame. Thanks to all for the excercise of my mental muscles. Time to take a walk on this soft summer night. Peace.
Nina said: "None of what I am saying comes as a surprise and is likely the desired intent, conscious or unconscious."
I love the way you type English.
Interesting things to dwell on Pangolin, I'm going outside too. I definitely will reply in the morning.
I hope you're able to find a way to allow offensive opinions to take their place in your 'Deep Into Artwest Life" lexicon, Nina.
A decision like that will only make you appear more magnanimous in the surreal blogdom world we inhabit, doanchathink?
Good night.
nina: *smile* yes. a lesson. thank you, friend.
to all: i have enjoyed this red hot and fascinating exchange. ive been given much to consider, thanks.
Wow. Are you kidding me?
This reminds me of arguing about why KISS actually ISN'T the greatest band of all time.
I have seen fistfights over this one in the past. Of course, I was 12 at the time.
In fact, the actors are the same. Upon further review, Rand is exactly like KISS in my view. I see spiked heels and leather, flashpots, and a smoking, rocket-launching Les Paul in the words of Rand, but when I really listen to the music........
If this person's work (or rather the opinion of it) is to be a wedge between us on some level, if we are going to have to choose "sides" at some point over the things that helped inform us and discount what we have have become as a result, then I'm done as well.
The bastards have won.
Z
P.S. I didn't realize you could "see" who was visiting from where and when.
I'm not STALKING you, Nina - I swear!
KISS was also responsible for inspiring more kids to take up playing instruments themselves than any other band EVER (More than the Beatles), so there is that to consider as well.
Love to all,
Z
I had a "Rand" phase.
I grew out of it.
I do not, however, despise the young man who needed a dose of Randian cant at the time.
That poor kid grew up with an abusive, alcoholic father and an enabling mother... his own views were not respected, he was expected to "go along to get along." He was expected to toe the party (family) line and was considered a traitor for any moves towards independence of the sick family system.
I can honestly say that Rand helped me at the time. Eventually, I grew out of her. I don't need her simplistic view of the universe. Of man, of social relations.
Sometimes things that developing embryos or infants need would kill an adult of the species.
And I'm not even saying JJ is immature. I don't know him in real life. I don't know what he's been through. I never had the feeling he was here as an interloper or spy or malefactor.
I doubt he'll be back... but I wish him well. I wish everyone here well... even though many have annoyed me. There are many original and insightful thinkers here, but the ones who perform the most brilliant verbal dances are also often primadonnas, and a bit arrogant. I recognize the bit... I've done it, and still do sometimes. But the arrogance I find here at times doesn't really bother me anymore, since I usually sense a goal that is positive.
Let's face it: a lot of people here, just as in the real world, are confused and messed up. I would posit that being mutually supportive, even if we disagree vehemently, is going to produce a better result.
I myself may take a break from blogs, web news, and the whole virtual world. Sheesh... I ironically started a blog about leaving virtual reality some months ago... but I've obviously have had little success in leaving it.
Today I'm going to garden, fix something physical, and just plain hang out on the riverbank or something and fish.
Be well.
Jj, I apologize sincerely. If I could take it back, I would. I am very sorry.
Geeze, I was a bad girl. Simply awful. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Don't go.
I have not read any of the posts yet, I just woke up in shame and would miss you terribly if you went away.
I don't think it has anything to do with Rand. It was a leftover from last week's spat. Don't go.
Whoa.
Rein this wagon in, folks.
My apologies to Nina and the blog if I incited this brawl. I have been very reluctant, for a long time now, to participate at Nina's blog for this very reason. I have a purposely cultivated abrasive manner of posting, that I have developed for its effectiveness on certain political blogs. It really has no place here, and I should probably hang it on a hook before I come in.
As to Jj, I too hope Nina reconsiders. I seem to have hamstrung the poor fellow, and feel a responsibility for his fall from Nina's grace. Nina sees a sad age behind his posting, and in disagreement, I see a youthful arrogance. I'm optimistic that that I'm correct, for Nina's view seems tragic, somehow. But regardless, I agree with Arthur, and feel Jj has earned his right to be here, just by virtue of being here.
(On a lighter note, the "word verification" keeps drawing my eye, as I attempt to concentrate on my post. "Burpasm". Is this the last orgasmic expulsion of gas one emits at the end of a long battle with indigestion?)
But perhaps my infrequent visits here disqualify me from making judgement or weighing in. Surely the active and frequent contributers here have more insight into the dynamics and personalities fueling this spat, and may indeed have their own thoughts as to why Rand has brought wedges to the debate.
Anyway, somewhere in the discordance of these interactions, there is a lesson to be learned about selflessness, isn't there? I'm sure Rand would find one, so shouldn't we? Maybe after counting the "i"s in Jj's last post, I'll look for that lesson.
Or maybe the lesson will be learned by counting the "I"s in my own posts, eh?
no i wasnt kidding. i did not see this argument at 12. at twelve, i was more interested in my pets, swim team and playing outside.
The end of Chapter Twelve.....
And here, over the portals of my fort, I shall cut in the stone the word which is to be my beacon and my banner. The word which will not die, should we all perish in battle. The word which can never die on this earth, for it is the heart of it and the meaning and the glory.
The sacred word:
EGO
About the Ayn Rand thing... some years ago I read about her experiences later in life when she apparently discovered that she was being betrayed by her young lover. It was an interesting test of her ideas. Apparently when hers were the feelings getting stepped on she wasn't very "objective" about it. Imagine that!
The Cult of Ayn Rand, by Jeff Walker, published by Open Court, Chicago and La Salle, Illinois.
I cannot recommend this book highly enough for anyone interested in the real Ayn Rand.
Nina - It seems in my absence of late, you have been invaded by some egos... Intelligent, no doubt, but assuming and a bit too self-righteous. I have to say, from what I've read in my brief return, that not many of the "new" folks could hold a candle to Jim (Jj's) intellect or his spirit. I am not saying this to cause further discord. That is not my intention. I am merely calling out the facts as I see them.
There is something incredibly puerile in the self-assured tones of their collective writings, though no doubt, more informed than one would generally find in adolecence.
Neither I, nor Jim, has said anything about anyone being an island. These were castigations maligned against us, because we don't seem to buy into the neo-liberal ideal that "it takes a community".
As you know well, we absolutely acknowledge the usefulness, nay the neccessity of assistance and cooperation from others. I just think that those associations should be freely made. One should be able to choose for him or her self with whom and how, they participate.
It seems to me that the majority of folks who want the government to do this or that for them, have not had the fullness of experience in real life, to see that governent does not do anything correctly, or even effectively.
The folks I've known along the way, who have been self-reliant go-getters, have also been the some of the most generous, and deeply concerned "individuals" I have ever met. I wonder why that is.
notamobster,
You ignored the olive branch I passed to you earlier.
Instead you chose to type:
“There is something incredibly puerile in the self-assured tones of their collective writings, though no doubt, more informed than one would generally find in adolecence.”
I hope when cooler heads prevail, you feel ashamed for writing this. This is the kind of writing that makes me wince with embarrassment for the author.
I’d rather read more of the kind of thinking on display lower down in the same post.
My grandfather used to say to all of us children, “If you can’t be clear, be quiet”. It's still good advice.
And since it doesn't look like I've got a snowball's chance in hell of ever getting you to listen to me coolly enough to re-think some of the things you type, I won't make another attempt. Besides, it doesn't look like you're seeking out alternatives as much as you're looking for confirmation for your already-fully-formed opinions.
And that's okay too IF you already have it all figured out and all that's needed is for everyone else to fall in line, take up their assigned role and get on with making your dreams come true, that is.
Otherwise, I think you might be setting yourself up for disappointment.
...done now.
Dear Stacy, you started out talking to me and slid right over into talking to "them". The best I can do is take a message. I have washed my hands of Randian debate and moved on in my own way. There will always be new opinions and new ways to see yet more sides of the same issue. I welcome it. I encourage it.
Jj should feel free to post here whenever he wants. I tried to make that clear yesterday. The ball is in his park now. I lost his # in the hardrive crash, otherwise I'd call him.
Its apparent it takes me longer to formulate a post than it does arthur who got the message by esp or was listening in on my brainwaves.
Hmmmm.
Somehow I don't recall making the argument that one should not choose friends, associates, allies, or partners.
Nor do I recall arguing in favor of governmental intrusion into our freedom of choice.
And, uh, perhaps I'm just getting senile, but I don't recall advocating for government handouts either.
So, notamobster, just what the hell has your panties in a wad?
After you figure that out, why don't you gift us with your opinion of the quoted excerpt from Chapter Twelve of Rand's Anthem.
POA
"The best I can do is take a message." posted by Nina.
May I use these words as lyrics? Credited, of course.
I would be honored.
Hmmmm.
It appears 'ol notamobster isn't going to gift us with a pearl of wisdom or two about Rand's closing paragraph to Chapter Twelve, eh?
Could it be because Rand's take on "ego" is the take of a narcissistic and self agrandizing ass?
I wonder, can one still worship at Rand's altar, yet cast aside her nomination of ego to the throne of The Almighty?
Atheist, agnostic, or deeply religious, the worship of your ego above all else is a one way ticket to your own private hell.
POA
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